To whom it concerns: about (my) ratings ... (1 Viewer)

[Rudgar]

Ahoy together!

First of all:
If any of the administrators thinks that this post is misplaced here, feel free to move it to a more suitable place.
If any of the administrators thinks that this post is inappropriate in any way, feel free to remove it completely.

A few days ago, I tumbled over an answer to one of my ratings.

Instead of answering right away, I took my time to think about it and to decide, if and how I want to respond to this.

First of all: I was a bit surprised, because I didn't rate this top "automatically" without having thought about it. I even contacted the creator and tried to convince or motivate him to make this top breast-slider-adjustable. No avail.
The creator's main reason, as far as I understood him: he just doesn't want to. And that's okay. It must be okay, because it's his life and his time after all. I don't have the least right to insist on something that is voluntary.
But I do have the right to use the rating feature of this forum to give feedback about what I honestly think about this product. I mean: that is the rating's actual purpose that it has been made for, isn't it?

However, I did not just "automatically downvote" anything just because of a missing feature. If this would have been the case, I would have given the product ONE(!) star (of five) without any comment - instead of the three stars I actually gave plus message with the reason for my rating.
I sincerly tried to be fair and gave as much points/stars as the createor and his product imho have deserved. From the maximum of 5 stars I subtracted one for that the product can't be used with sby 's mods superbreast/breastexpansionplus. I subtracted a second one for that the product can't be integrated in a bundle like WeeWillie 's Slave Bazaar with his breast potions (and I'm working on a dialogue having the same potions).
In addition, I even left a reason why I did not give a higher rating.

Be honest: how much more fair can I be?

I am aware that this post might lead to a maybe even pretty emotional discussion about ratings and I thought several days about taking this risc or not. In the end, I want to point out that my ratings/feedbacks are not just mindless, even if they have (and will) hit tops without breast slider compatibility in general - in particular when such tops are to good to remain "incomplete".
I do respect other artists/creators and their work and I want to show them that I'm taking them and their work serious.
But I want them to take me and my feedback serious in return, too.

just my two cents

Respectfully, Rudgar

P.S.: In return I am more than thankful when a creator goes the full nine yards.

 

[WeeWillie]

First know that I love you Rudgar, and think you are a great asset to the SDT community, but I have to disagree with you a little bit here. Maybe this is due to my PTSD with respect to breast slider work. The experience I had making bras still haunts me. Or maybe it has to do with the horrible feeling I get when someone doesn't give me 5 stars due to reasons that I never meant to put into my project in the first place.

I think content should be voted on against other mods of the same type or class. It wouldn't be fair to judge a text only dialogue against Slave Bazaar (a slave "waifu" bundle). A five start text-only dialogue would be a really well-written entertaining dialogue. A three star dialogue would be a "just average" dialog when compared to other text-only dialogues.

But you might say that you are doing just that. Some tops support breast slider and some do not. The ones that do not are only "average" when compared to ones that do. But I would argue that breast slider support is its own beast. It's its own class of content. Creating a top that supports breasts sliders is an order of magnitude more work because you have to key frame the whole range, and when done right its not just a scaling of the art. Flat versus mega-boobs just will look different with respect to neck line and how it interacts with the torso. There's a reason I created whip marks on the back and butt, but not for the breasts, ha! There's a reasons that there are a ton of non-breast slider support outfits, but very few bras and tops that support breast slider.

As for superbreast support, I don't think that is even possible. (is that true sby ?) Has anyone made a top that support superbreast for overly large sizes? I think that violates the core of SDT programming for top/bra support, and would require some massive code changes. I could be wrong.

In my humble opinion, I think tops should be judged on their art style, and the titles or description should be very clear if they support breast slider support.

That being said, a huge thank you goes out to those that do make tops that have breast slider support. Those are the tops that developers like Rudgar and me will incorporate into our projects.

Just my two cents.

 

[edgelord 3000]

IMO, an average user (as opposed to a professional reviewer) is free to give whatever rating they want for whatever reason they want, as long as they explain their reasoning. If someone rates a skirt one star because it was blue when they wanted it red, then I can read their explanation and use that skirt anyway if I like it being blue. If they were to simply rate it one star without any explanation, that would be unfair and unhelpful, since the creator have no idea what they could improve and I won't know why I would want to avoid the resource.

Ratings, whether it's stars or dice or 1-100 or whatever are fairly useless in any case, as evidenced by numerous gaming sites. Anything less than a perfect score is "bad", right? I much prefer to read more in detail about what's good and bad about the mod/game/etc and make a judgement based on that.

 

[Huitznahua]

Rudgar : About your rating and comment. You aren't an anonymous user and you are open to discuss your rating. That's fine.

Spoiler: stuntcock words about rating

The Resource system will be unable to distinguish good and popular files from bad and obscure ones ... until it has actually been used. So please use it!

• If you see a mod which you use every day, then click the Download button. If you already possess the latest version then you can immediately cancel the download.
• Each Download click informs the system about the popularity of the Resource, and it allows you to leave feedback. It also ensures that you'll be notified about any updates that occur in the future.
• Use the Rating system to show your appreciation for your favorite mods. You can also use this opportunity to complain about mods which are out-of-date, unreliable, crashtastic, or simply ugly. It's okay to be blunt, but please try to be constructive as well.
  • Please remember the website rules. Do not downvote a mod merely because it involves fat girls (while you prefer fit girls), or because it includes a loli character (which you find morally repugnant).
• If something doesn't work (such as a broken download link or a missing preview image) then please say so. Don't just leave a 1/5 rating without any explanation.
• If you see a completely inappropriate Resource entry (such as a random dude reposting one of sby's mods and claiming to have created it, or a zip file full of malware installers) then please click the Report button.

So according to the forum rules or guidelines fairness and constructivism are required when rating.

I think it's really harsh to say "he just doesn't want to.". As far as I know, you never did any breast support mod yourself so you do not how the shitshow works (at least you may have a rough idea) and even if you propose to help I can't figure what help you will be able to provide in this matter.
To paraphrase WeeWillie breast slidder support is a kind of special topic in sdt modding. Among other thing, there is a clash between aesthetic and design (this is true for all sdt mod but this is peculiary true for bra-ish mod). Making a hightly detailed bra whithout breast slider support can be quite tiresome. Turning it into a breast slider supported bra, with the same level of details, is atrociously difficult and tedious (at least compared to making other kind of mod).
For exemple my Strapless Bikini support breast slidder but there is absolutely no details or even proper outline and it fall apart as soon as the girl move or just even breathe. It was one of my first mods and, to be honest, I probably wouldn't have ever release it with my current standards and experiences because I think it's awful. Breast slidder support seems to be the alpha and omega of the achievements for sdt users but, as a modder myself, I occasionally prefer making "good looking" mods (with more details but little physics support, for exemple footwear) because I think it is more rewarding.
So the author doesn't want to do it: leave him be. I advise you to ask for a revision or even start from scratch by making a new request with proper ref images. Or, since you offer several times to help, why not trying to make the mod by yourself ? I'm willing to assist you as far as I can in the accomplishment of this project.

------
Moderator note: I edited your post by removing the link to the PM conversation with the author because I'm not confortable with one side unilaterally displaying a private conversation.

 

[sby]

depending on design, to make a full feature bra mod would be a real deep dive. i think stuntcock attempted to build some bra strap stuff at one point, but its complicated.
essentially the best bra a conventional artist can put together can either be limited in style to lesson breast jiggle movement issues, or very elegant and have breast jiggle locked to rock solid (which i am not sure if anyone has done, since i don't remember anyone asking me for a snippet of code to create some diamond cutters). with Weewillie's lacy bra, he made the bra spread out near the connection point near the shoulder to make it look good.
i never got the modded (or vanilla) bras to properly scale, though there is probably a way to do it. it wouldn't be on the artists side to add in this support, it would be built into superbreast or whatever is expanding the breasts further as superbreast is simply scaling the largest breast animation frame with a bit of tuned translation.

 

[Huitznahua]

depending on design, to make a full feature bra mod would be a real deep dive. i think stuntcock attempted to build some bra strap stuff at one point, but its complicated.

He actually did it ! Years ago I ask him help about properly connecting straps to a bra cup and he tweek his Dynamic Hair Extender library to do the job. But this is still tiresome to use: what you see in flash doesn't represent at all what you will get in game. So you need to tweek your stuff, publish, launch the game, load the mod, re tweek, publish .... a fucking thousand times. Besides, the library documentation is kind of messy.

 

[edgelord 3000]

If we're talking about breast slider support exclusively, I want to mention that it's the single most important aspect for me when choosing top/bra mods. It doesn't matter if it's The Best Bra In The World, if I can't adjust the size of it, then it's no use to me. So if I have to choose between basic or even awful support for it or none at all, I'd choose the former any time.

 

[Rudgar]

Ahoy!
I more or less expected (feared) a kind of an emotional "shitstorm" about "fairness vs. honesty in ratings" as a reaction to my post, but ... wow .... you guys surprised me with your thoughtful answers. Thank you to everyone taking his time to read my lines, make your own thoughts and phrase them in a such a reasonable way. It took me some time to think about your arguments and in the next days, I will pick the most important ones and answer to them.

Let me pick one of the most relevant points first:
it's true, I never made tops on my own and so I have not the faintest clue about the hell of adding breast slider support to one.

So I can't rate tops as a developer, I have to rate them as a ... customer? user?

But on the other side: do I have to be a mechanic to be able to rate a car fair?
Before I "downsized" to my current car (Toyota Aygo) I had a Mercedes 320 CLK convertible. Comfort and luxury - the later in particular at the gas station or at a garage.
At the same time my best friend also had a CLK 320 - with fixed roof and a diesel engine. I'd rate none of both (cars!) with 5 stars. One star subtraction on my own car for swallowing gas like a scandincavian sailor drinks beer, one star subtraction on his car for not being a converitble.
I frankly don't care about how much more hard and complicated it is to build a convrtible compared to a fixed roof or why diesel engines are more expensive and need less fuel. All I want is enjoying open air feeling when driving my car and not having too much money for fuel. If one of both is missing, I subtract one from the rating.
Is this fair?

Do car manufacturers want a fair rating at all? Or do the just want to know if they hit my taste to find out how to sell more cars in future?

I'll keep on thinking ...

Respectfully, Rudgar

 

[Rudgar]

[...] a huge thank you goes out to those that do make tops that have breast slider support. Those are the tops that developers like Rudgar and me will incorporate into our projects.

true

Respectfully, Rudgar

 

[Rudgar]

[...]So according to the forum rules or guidelines fairness and constructivism are required when rating.

Please correct me in case I judge myself wrong: I thought filled both of these requirements, didn't I?

I think it's really harsh to say "he just doesn't want to.".

Hello? I am German.
Germans did not establish the ideal of a gentleman's behaviour. That's a British invention.
Germans did not invent flattering flirts - the French did ("fleurer" = "to give flowers (as a compliment)")
Germans are known for building cars, tanks and fighting-til-the-bitter-end-battleships.
Germans rather insist on being correct than polite.
And in this case the creators answer to my PM was pretty clear: he doesnt' want to. And that's just fine! I don't have any problem with it.
(I fully understand him: try forcing me to do some work I just don't want to do - Wooohooo! Halleluhjah! Let's come back to the tanks and the battleships!)

Edit: please understand this as a kind of joking about stereotypes. Of course NO(!) nationaltity should serve as an excuse for raw manners.

To be continued ...

Respectfully, Rudgar

 

[Huitznahua]

Please correct me in case I judge myself wrong: I thought filled both of these requirements, didn't I?

Yeah you did. My intent was to explain this particular point to the crowd. Apologies if it was too unclear.

So I can't rate tops as a developer, I have to rate them as a ... customer? user?

You did a little more than just rate the mod. You sent a PM to the author trying to convince him to take your request and insisted although he refused very explicitly. Besides, you even start this thread

Germans did not invent flattering flirts - the French did ("fleurer" = "to give flowers (as a compliment)")

Hello, I'm a frog. "fleurer" = "to give flowers (as a compliment)" : Wut ?!

 

[SyntaxTerror]

I didn't read all this thread but that argument seems a bit fallacious to me:

So I can't rate tops as a developer, I have to rate them as a ... customer? user?

But on the other side: do I have to be a mechanic to be able to rate a car fair?
Before I "downsized" to my current car (Toyota Aygo) I had a Mercedes 320 CLK convertible. Comfort and luxury - the later in particular at the gas station or at a garage.
At the same time my best friend also had a CLK 320 - with fixed roof and a diesel engine. I'd rate none of both (cars!) with 5 stars. One star subtraction on my own car for swallowing gas like a scandincavian sailor drinks beer, one star subtraction on his car for not being a converitble.
I frankly don't care about how much more hard and complicated it is to build a convrtible compared to a fixed roof or why diesel engines are more expensive and need less fuel. All I want is enjoying open air feeling when driving my car and not having too much money for fuel. If one of both is missing, I subtract one from the rating.
Is this fair?

Do car manufacturers want a fair rating at all? Or do the just want to know if they hit my taste to find out how to sell more cars in future?

A French proverb says that "comparison is not reason" (ie. a comparison proves nothing).
If you're trying to compare cars to mods, what about their price?
Cars are not free. Car makers built cars to sell them. If they make good cars, I believe it is mainly to sell them better, and if they listen to what clients say, it is to sell more cars.
Mods are free. Mod makers make mods as a past time. If they make good mods, I believe it is mainly because they like good work, and if they listen to what users say, it's to please them and maybe also as a personnal challenge.

Modding takes hours, sometimes days or even weeks (occasionally to no avail, especially in the case of breast size adaptable mods), for no reward but the satisfaction to see his work enjoyed by others.
I think that this work should be respected a bit, and as stuntcock noted, that the complaints should be constructive.

Saying that you won't use a mod because it isn't breast size adaptable seems a bit vain in this case, because obviously DigitalSmutExports won't sacrifice his artistic integrity just to get some more downloads.
I'd personnally do the same: I like to make good mods to be recognised as a good modder (I hope), if I start to make mediocre mods, I'll become a mediocre modder, and it's certainly not someone else that will push me to do this.

 

[ZRI]

As a guy with zero artistic talent, and no software to compile SWFs, I had no idea how difficult it was for you artists to make these things.
I think reading this gave me a better perspective on what you do. Thank you all.

 

[Hentai_Master_Hand_44]

Quite interesting thread indeed. Personally I only vote or rate a mod with 5 stars or not at all (at least I can not remember I gave a lower ranking). I figure the modder who did spent time on this, offers the package for free, and does this only for others to enjoy his work does not deserve less then 5 stars in general.

Even if I might personally not think of it as a good mod, or maybe even consider it a bad mod. One should always consider the blow to motivation the modder suffers if he gets a low(er) rating. Rating a mod is done very fast, maybe done even without a second thought in some cases I could imagine.

Now if one does consider how much time and effort a certain mod takes until the modder decides to share it, its not propotional. Everyone likes to see new content and doing the slightest thing to lower the motivation of a modder, is a very bad thing to do in my point of view.

I would say the rating system should only be used with care and some proper thinking ahead to not get the worst case scenario that the modder loses motivation, interest and thus stops modding/sharing. Low ratings can fuel this.

Always a personal point of view. If one likes a mod a lot, this one is nothing to another. This seems equaly to apply to the rating system and how it is used. I am not suggesting to rate every mod one does see with 5 stars, but that can't hurt either

 

[DigitalSmutExports]

Saw this thread just now and since it's about my response I thought I should reply even if it's late.

Firstly I do think it's fair to say you get automatically downvoted. There are tons and tons and tons of tops where the consensus is that it should be highly rated and then there's one low vote from you/OP (used to be 1s, I got a 3 so there's that) with a comment about how it's useless w/o slider compatibility. Imo that would be a bit like me going through every dialogue on the RM and giving it a 1 because it's not comparable in scope to Slave Bazaar just like WeeWillie alluded to. You weren't wrong when you sensed some annoyance, but in truth I think my reply was informative.

I wasn't offended by this at all, we can have different ideas about rating criteria and that's just fine. The real reason I was a bit annoyed was that I've seen you put other users in their place before when they were insistent that others do more work and for that reason it didn't sit well with me when you not only messaged me but insisted after I'd already said no.

Lastly - not because it's relevant but because I might as well mention it - this particular top would be unusually (possibly uniquely) difficult and tiresome to make slider compatible. With most tops you would "just" have to redo the cups for every breast size. With this one you would also have to redo shading (that's on another body part!) for each of the sizes to make it align properly with the cups. It's just not feasible.