I'll explain it a bit further since it's kind of lame to just say "I like losing!"
Most of the time I spend on the zako theme is either roleplaying online, or writing stories. When I do this, I envision myself as the zako. I have no idea how to fight, I'm not evil (I don't think at least), and I wouldn't be confident going after a clearly superior enemy. I do make dumb decisions however, so that's where me becoming a zako comes from.
It's more about the fear I guess, knowing that I have no chance, and not wanting to fight but being taken down anyways and forgotten.
You self-insert differently. It's no surprise your perspective is different.
It is fascinating that you identify with the zako themselves, I had always assumed that people were largely drawn to this because of the dominant nature of it. When you write it out, it almost seems obvious that people would see themselves in the role, though. It's easy to identify as a person with no particular special skill in combat thrown into it.
How much do you care about what happens after? Does the fantasy end at combat or is it more a setup? I apologize if the questions are uncomfortable, but I've only heard the perspectives of people who either insert as the hero/ine or as an observer.
@cyke - you're pretty much spot on with me, although I'm not sure who's weirder. I prefer focusing on individuals/small groups of zako instead of big platoons (for the most part) due to the roleplaying/envisioning myself in it.
@Stuelpner_Karl - I've always loved the ideas of backgrounds and family for zako (probably part of the "envisioning myself" in the role).
@Weoooo - I'm guessing you're wondering what happens to me in my fantasies after defeat? If it's a knockout, normally I end up in some sort of jail or other embarrassing situation. If it's death, I normally like my body to stick around for a while (minus the disgusting decomposing thing...). Really don't like the idea of my body disappearing for some reason.
There's specific scenarios and stuff I like, but I won't bore everyone publicly with them :P
Hmmm, I told myself I'd try to make this board more active, so here goes...
It's more of a fear thing for me. I like envisioning myself as the zako, nervously on patrol or trying to win a fight I have no hope of. Can't say why, but the idea of being scared even though I'm armed and in uniform is just kind of a turn on?
As for specific scenarios I have lots :P
For example being a Maid guard. Knowing I'm in a totally impractical uniform (dress/heels) but armed, hearing other zako go down in the distance. I move along the hallways terrified looking for him, holding my gun, until the protagonist attacks, takes me down and moves onto the next target.
Or in a big group. We just tried to attack but he easily took tons of us down. Now we're in a panic and I'm trying to run away with the rest of the zako.
Or just simply on guard duty. He attacks me without me realizing it, drags me into the darkness. Shows the other agent he's training the technique for taking down sentries/zakos, not even really acknowledging me as I plead.
AAAAAnnnnndddd... I'm getting super specific, weird and taking this thread off topic :P
I imagine not being able to run very fast or tripping over them probably works out well for the idea of being afraid and outclassed. Agent Aika also made an entire anime out of the idea of upskirts while in fights, so that works well too.
For me they should be poor fighters - they rely on guns, but are not very skilled with them. they would be completely hopeless with other sorts of non firearm weapons.They are in the pay of the main villain - in it for money and have no loyalty to any "cause" or to their employer come to that. Essentially they are criminals, not "warriors" or "soldiers". They are not nice people - freely choosing evil, they're bullying, greedy, often sadistic - basically cowardly. I don't think much about their background or anything - they exist to be villains in the scenario and get bumped off, or otherwise defeated and captured. They are over confident because they think the odds are with them. But things don't turn out as they thought. Even in large numbers this sort can generally be defeated by one or 2 heroines (I only like a heroine fighting them, not a male). Fighting to the death is not their thing - they surrender or run away given the chance when things are going badly for them. They can kill helpless people/enemies - but are usually sunk when a skilled fighter takes them on - it's nice to see them realize it! In this area I really only like "modern" real world secret agent/crime type stories - not fantasy/sci fi/magic/amazons. I don't know why.
I get fed up with movies/tv/comics etc where one woman easily defeats a whole host of big, often armed men, then goes and has a terrible time trying to beat a single, often unarmed woman. It's very sexist too. I want the heroine (s) take on and defeat a lot of enemy women at once. Let's hear it for females being regularly allowed to be nasty (preferably hot) disposable minions too.
While I do think a lot about their background and their existance outside of the scenario, I really love Zipgun's artwork.
There is an interesting contrast:
On one side you have one or two good girls, usually Asian, wearing Gi or other practical clothes, armed only with small martial arts weapons, if armed at all. They look very competent, down-to-earth. The type of people you would love to have in your team.
On the other side is a much bigger group of women, usually blond, pale, in leather or scantily clad, often smoking, armed with guns. While other Zakos are young and cute, or tough girls who hold their own in a male-dominated world, these look really nasty and kinda trashy. I think it's mostly their facial expression. If nothing else, they look like incompetent, arrogant bitches.
So it shifts our sympathies into a certain direction. We want to see the Asians beat the stuffing out of the blondes. No matter how harsh their fate will be, they have it coming. But if one of the Asians got killed, it would be a real downer.
In all objectivity, Zipgun's picture as well might show two asian robbers taking down a bunch of good girls working for a bank, but would it make much of a difference? They still look like incompetent, arrogant bitches who deserve a beating - and if they die, it's probabyl no big loss.
I love this kind of unfairness, when their demise is "just insignificant to everyone... except me."
(Though it seems that none of the RAVEN thugs is worth to empathize with. But who knows? It's just fantasy.)
Thanks, Karl.
One of the problems I personally have with manga "zako" is they tend to look cute and "nice". It's just my own preference , but I like the villainesses (if we're talking about suitably ruthless and wicked ones) to "look" villainous. It's what I try to do. But I don't want to make them ugly, but mean looking, sort of cruel and predatory, trashy. And they are pretty incompetent when it comes to a fight - they're not warriors, just conceited underworld tramps with guns in their hands who far outnumber their opponents. Creating henchwomen types you WANT to lose and get suitable punishment is what I aim for, so they completely lack any of the characteristics which can make some "villainous" characters a bit admirable/sympathetic. Closest I've ever seen to mine are probably the smug mob of hired female killers in the "Trojan whores" mission of "Saints Row the Third", who have the tables turned on them mainly by a lone protagonist.
While I do think a lot about their background and their existance outside of the scenario, I really love Zipgun's artwork.
There is an interesting contrast:
On one side you have one or two good girls, usually Asian, wearing Gi or other practical clothes, armed only with small martial arts weapons, if armed at all. They look very competent, down-to-earth. The type of people you would love to have in your team.
On the other side is a much bigger group of women, usually blond, pale, in leather or scantily clad, often smoking, armed with guns. While other Zakos are young and cute, or tough girls who hold their own in a male-dominated world, these look really nasty and kinda trashy. I think it's mostly their facial expression. If nothing else, they look like incompetent, arrogant bitches.
So it shifts our sympathies into a certain direction. We want to see the Asians beat the stuffing out of the blondes. No matter how harsh their fate will be, they have it coming. But if one of the Asians got killed, it would be a real downer.
In all objectivity, Zipgun's picture as well might show two asian robbers taking down a bunch of good girls working for a bank, but would it make much of a difference? They still look like incompetent, arrogant bitches who deserve a beating - and if they die, it's probabyl no big loss.
I love this kind of unfairness, when their demise is "just insignificant to everyone... except me."
(Though it seems that none of the RAVEN thugs is worth to empathize with. But who knows? It's just fantasy.)
I checked Trojan Whores on youtube.
Compared to your artwork, it's lacking likeable heroes to make a contrast to the unlikeable villains. The heroine is cool, but too generic, and the guys she's protecting are downright annoying. So it's not really working for me.
Evil Zako (as well as other minor characters who are mainly there to be killed, even neutral or good ones) rarely get a description or many words to say. We have only what we see, and our imagination fills the blanks. Appearances can be deceiving, but making someone look mean, trashy and conceited can make us feel that the person deserves it and we can gloat over their misfortune.
Or we imagine to be that hero(ine) who gives them hell. Thus this hero should be likeable. It may be a quite sadistic vigilante, hitting the baddies much harder than needed, but rather funny and not annoying.
I prefer to be like the fly on the wall, following the Zako outside of the scenario, or (like KeiBreilSL) to envision myself in their position. They may all look similar and act equally, but each of them has her own personality. Where they live, there are different pictures on the wall, different items in the wardrobe and the fridge, different music, books, pets, flowers, different appointments in the diary... and most important, different life companions.
If I recall it right, the Delmos are assisting a crazy mastermind in his quest to destroy the world, while Zipgun's RAVEN thugs are just out for money. Thus my favorite "likeable by nature, nasty by trade" type of baddie may rather be found in the latter team.
Nonetheless, the odds are that at the end the cute will be spared and the trashy will be trashed.
With the Trojan whores you can change protagonists - there are a lot of different models, including male ones. Some of them use quite a bit of unarmed combat in taking on the assassins. There are many different versions up on YouTube. But the Saints, along with the mission protagonist presumably, are basically criminals, just less "bad" and capable of some good acts, unlike other criminals they fight (I can't abide making "heroes" of these types myself, and the character in it with the sing song electronically distorted voice is infuriating). So, for me, the protagonist maybe has to be "imagined" as a "proper" goodie.
Yes...I don't think I actually gloat over what happens to them - it's just recognizing satisfactory justice has been done in such cases. However, this isn't so if basically decent people are offed or locked up forever. So, my villains have no consciences or ethics - I show them doing something very bad/being vicious and often getting kicks out of it - all for thoroughly selfish reasons - or I'll write a short accompanying narrative to point out what they're like if its a stand alone pic just of them being taken out. RAVEN agents have to be perfectly willing to commit the most atrocious crimes without any reservations or squeamishness, if they enjoy it, do it enthusiastically, all the better - but just being cold blooded and indifferent is fine too. Being arrogant and conceited...and usually not very bright...they don't tend to consider they will have to pay for these crimes some time - they think THEY will always get away with it. The posted pic is one of a set which begins with the massacre/robbery they carried out.
RAVEN agents would not be involved in any cause set on destroying the world - as they would go with it - the same reason they'd never "go down fighting to the end".
You hardly ever see anything with scenarios and characters along similar lines as my stuff - which is why I took up doing it myself. I especially like the idea of an unarmed heroine (or two) taking on a lot of gun toting henchwomen - or ones who use "old fashioned" warrior weapons (like ninja ones) against many gun-women, beating them. This emphasizes the idea of skill and warrior arts as opposed to numbers and relying on firearms. So, arrogant henchwomen, who think they can't lose, have all the advantages, are stunned as the tables are turned on them.
MikeA is maybe a bit similar. He's much better than I am in his art, which is Poser, but his heroines are brutal sadists and the gore is often too much for me. He also does a lot of non modern scenarios - gladiators and such, which I don't care for in this sort of thing. I love dangerfan's site on deviantart, but his commissions, featuring his arch criminal Purple Vixen, are often far more jokey in approach than what I do - and he rarely has firearms etc or death/serious injury. He also develops his villainess and some of the henchwomen at times as "individuals " - which I really don't. His smug villainess and her henchwomen are ALWAYS being defeated by a range of protagonists, often in a humiliating fashion - even a kid, okay a superhero kid admittedly, can take Vixen and her "zako" apart. That's the conceit of the Purple Vixen series - Vixen and co are committed to and enthusiastic about greedy villainy alright, though really rather hopeless at it - but keep bouncing back for still more embarrassing and painful defeats, like Wiley E Coyote.
I checked Trojan Whores on youtube.
Compared to your artwork, it's lacking likeable heroes to make a contrast to the unlikeable villains. The heroine is cool, but too generic, and the guys she's protecting are downright annoying. So it's not really working for me.
Evil Zako (as well as other minor characters who are mainly there to be killed, even neutral or good ones) rarely get a description or many words to say. We have only what we see, and our imagination fills the blanks. Appearances can be deceiving, but making someone look mean, trashy and conceited can make us feel that the person deserves it and we can gloat over their misfortune.
Or we imagine to be that hero(ine) who gives them hell. Thus this hero should be likeable. It may be a quite sadistic vigilante, hitting the baddies much harder than needed, but rather funny and not annoying.
I prefer to be like the fly on the wall, following the Zako outside of the scenario, or (like KeiBreilSL) to envision myself in their position. They may all look similar and act equally, but each of them has her own personality. Where they live, there are different pictures on the wall, different items in the wardrobe and the fridge, different music, books, pets, flowers, different appointments in the diary... and most important, different life companions.
If I recall it right, the Delmos are assisting a crazy mastermind in his quest to destroy the world, while Zipgun's RAVEN thugs are just out for money. Thus my favorite "likeable by nature, nasty by trade" type of baddie may rather be found in the latter team.
Nonetheless, the odds are that at the end the cute will be spared and the trashy will be trashed.
So, my villains have no consciences or ethics - I show them doing something very bad/being vicious and often getting kicks out of it - all for thoroughly selfish reasons - or I'll write a short accompanying narrative to point out what they're like if its a stand alone pic just of them being taken out. RAVEN agents have to be perfectly willing to commit the most atrocious crimes without any reservations or squeamishness, if they enjoy it, do it enthusiastically, all the better - but just being cold blooded and indifferent is fine too. Being arrogant and conceited...and usually not very bright...they don't tend to consider they will have to pay for these crimes some time - they think THEY will always get away with it. The posted pic is one of a set which begins with the massacre/robbery they carried out.
I know. That's why they aren't the ones to empathize with. And while their appartments may look different, there's probably nothing to be found that makes us change our opinion. (One may invest the robbed money in shoes and the other in jewels, but that's about it.)
MikeA is maybe a bit similar. He's much better than I am in his art, which is Poser, but his heroines are brutal sadists and the gore is often too much for me.
That's true. His artwork is great, but his heroines are really evil, while the baddies are just soldiers. Watching it, I always hope heroines get decimated in the process. Sometimes it happens to one or two of them, but they usually win and kill everybody. It's similar to the (usually male) heroes in many movies. They kill scores of poor buggers, but make a big drama when one of them bites the dust. This really makes me hate them.
I love dangerfan's site on deviantart, but his commissions, featuring his arch criminal Purple Vixen, are often far more jokey in approach than what I do - and he rarely has firearms etc or death/serious injury. He also develops his villainess and some of the henchwomen at times as "individuals " - which I really don't. His smug villainess and her henchwomen are ALWAYS being defeated by a range of protagonists, often in a humiliating fashion - even a kid, okay a superhero kid admittedly, can take Vixen and her "zako" apart. That's the conceit of the Purple Vixen series - Vixen and co are committed to and enthusiastic about greedy villainy alright, though really rather hopeless at it - but keep bouncing back for still more embarrassing and painful defeats, like Wiley E Coyote.
I absolutely love the Purple Vixen series. It's like the Bud Spencer movies I grew up with. Aside from more variety in outfits, there could be a few more serious end fights, with a couple of fatalities though. Especially if they are developed as individuals. I can envision them as people living rather normal lives outside of their criminal careers, with someone who's waiting for them, and their incompetence may partly result from being not focused enough. But they love to bully poor defenseless people and present themselves in a such a mean, trashy and conceited fashion that nobody feels sorry for them. So it may happen that "basically decent people are offed or locked up forever", which adds a bit of suspense.
I guess I find myself somewhere between the extremes on this issue: I like the Zakos to give the heroine a challenge. I like them to be clever, adapt to the heroines moves and strategies, put her in difficult positions, apply painful grabs and generally be resilient and difficult to take down. They are well trained soldiers for a nefarious (and supposedly wealthy and powerful, capable of hiring the best talent and organizing elite training) organization/clan/villain/whatever after all! I do want the boss to finish off the heroine though!
I think the new Ninja Gaiden series sums up pretty well how I like my Zako.
I don't mind if zakos get the upperhand or even win a few minor fights in order to make them look more competent. Ultimately in the end though, I like it best when they get destroyed by the protagonist(s).
Just the idea of the zakos trying their best to win the fight even though the odds are stacked greatly against them via the plot armor of the protagonist(s) keeps me vested in rooting for them, even though I know they are doomed to fail.
I feel like there might be a difference between a fighting fetish and a defeating fetish. I think I have both, but mostly defeating. I also feel like the presence of a heroine instead of a self insert in a lot of people's fantasy's shows that they have some small desire to be overpowered. As for myself I'm a textbook sexual sadist, so I only really enjoy it if I'm playing to hero and I defeat the zako (although, hypothetically in live role playing I can be down with being defeated on occasion, because it makes me want revenge even more badly)
Honestly, ever since I was a kid, I've always had a thing for being defeated by zakos, I admire arrogant zakos who pride themselves on working for a criminal organization, treating you like the heroines treat the other zakos, you're just a fool playing as a hero and being defeated by a team of well trained girls who are efficient in doing their jobs.
When I was still exploring my sexuality, I loved playing Streets of Rage only to be defeated by a group of Nora’s, I was excited to be beaten up cowardly by weak women who wouldn't even come down from their high heels to defeat you, for them, you were just another pathetic fool who failed to defeat the untouchable Mr. X
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